Capitalism - Hot or Not?

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keepinitneal
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Post by keepinitneal » March 21, 2005, 6:35 pm

Someone interviewing Bill Gates on ITV news said to him that he's more socialist than Gordon Brown.
Still trying to figure out what that means. In the meantime I have Xbox to console me and Halo 2, Oddworld and a host of other immensely awesome creations only available through the monopoly that is Microsoft. So what if we have to wait til June for GTA San Andreas?
Points to think about: If we make Gates so abominably rich that he can no longer think what to do with his fortune we may just accelerate his inchoate philanthropy.
Also, that palpable monopolism so tangible in Microsoft effectively reveals the tendencies of Capitalism (built on theft, repression and imperialism) duplicitously to annihilate its ostensible founding principles.
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Tenacious B
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Post by Tenacious B » March 22, 2005, 8:56 am

look man you can't blame capitalism you fucking commie

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Steevil Knievel
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Post by Steevil Knievel » March 22, 2005, 1:01 pm

Yes you can. We've had this argument before, Matt. Let's agree to disagree. The structure of capitalism is unsustainable and not conducive to social reform for the greater majority of people.
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Post by Steevil Knievel » March 22, 2005, 1:03 pm

keepinitneal wrote:Microsoft effectively reveals the tendencies of Capitalism (built on theft, repression and imperialism) duplicitously to annihilate its ostensible founding principles.
YES!!!
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Post by Tenacious B » March 22, 2005, 1:42 pm

people like you and neil, you pinko scum, will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

i, on the other hand, will be watching the revolution on my widescreen tv, sitting on my vibrating leather couch, getting a blowjob from a whore i ordered over the fucking internet.

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Post by BadBoy » March 22, 2005, 1:47 pm

people like you and neil, you pinko scum, will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
if we gonna have trade unionists up against the wall as well im there like a bear ( truth be told if there are hookers im there like a bear ill just enjoy it more with the unionists against the wall)
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Post by Steevil Knievel » March 23, 2005, 12:20 pm

Revolution: a drastic and far-reaching change in ways of thinking and behaving, often by violent means.

Thus, the revolution, if any, will be in the favour of pinkos like me and Neal. You can already order whores off the internet and buy big tvs. Hence, there is no need for any change in that direction. And, in the words of Radiohead, when I am king you will be first against the wall, corporate buggers.

PS, if you really want to know, the Gamecube is the best. :oops:
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Post by Tenacious B » March 23, 2005, 1:03 pm

oh you sad bastard. you can have a place in one of my companies after i purchase china, out of pity.

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Post by MacDaddy » March 23, 2005, 2:06 pm

Steevil Knievel wrote:Yes you can. We've had this argument before, Matt. Let's agree to disagree. The structure of capitalism is unsustainable and not conducive to social reform for the greater majority of people.
Gimme a fucking break man.

There is no alternative that could possibly work. Communism/socialism has consistently proved to be the most hideously flawed and unsustainable system ever conceived.

Capitalism allows and thrives on substantive economic and social freedom. Never have 'the masses' done worse than when a communist/socialist regime was looking out for them.

Communism/socialism doesn't even work theoretically, because after all their rhetoric they forgot to add the disclaimer 'This system cannot possibly work if it is carried out by human beings'.
.Matt wrote:you are all so wise. and unspeakably revolting, of course.

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Post by Steevil Knievel » March 24, 2005, 12:16 pm

Well, I disagree. I never said I support communism as implemented by Russia or China. I said that capitalism is vastly flawed and will ultimately crumble. Capitalist propaganda says that democratic liberal capitalism is the only economic, political, and social system that is truly humane, that truly has to the Good of humanity at heart. It also says that every other political system is a vile and bloody dictatorship, and completely irrational. I disagree with capitalist propaganda because it is formulated by those with a vested interest in maintaining their position. It is against emancipatory politics, it is against the interests of the greater majority of people. This is my opinion, I value yours, Marco, and yours, Matt. I understand your points but I disagree.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 24, 2005, 1:26 pm

Steevil Knievel wrote:I said that capitalism is vastly flawed and will ultimately crumble.
capitalism will never crumble, because the people that benefit most from it are the ones in power making the decisions. so you and your pinko liberal friends who squat in abandoned tenement blocks waiting for your comrades to liberate you from the accursed infidel have quite a wait ahead of you.
Steevil Knievel wrote:Capitalist propaganda says that democratic liberal capitalism is the only economic, political, and social system that is truly humane, that truly has to the Good of humanity at heart.


never mind all that. never mind capitalist propoganda. let's just look at the only system on this planet that has ever succeeded in making life livable for even a tiny percentage of its population - capitalism, not communism or socialism.

p.s. thanks for arguing against us and not thinking we hate you. viva debate.
p.p.s. you know i love you.

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Post by keepinitneal » March 28, 2005, 8:28 pm

Marco, blaming humanity for its own faults is not only misanthropic but is a straw man polemic par excellence. Empirical verifiability of concrete human nature, evil, depraved, self-destructive, callous or whatever, always fails and is the root cause of the insustainability of all three systems insofar as they refuse to recognise the complexity of human experience. Capitalism and Communism, as extremes on a continuum of sorts that transcends the pragmatic are, granted, theoretically flawed. Point is, and Joe Slovo made this point twenty years ago, liberal reforms will never effectively eliminate the essential and undeniable injustice of the class struggle. Define 'class' however you will (and that's the start of a whole other topic - a highly pertinent one at that) but this is a fact. A hard cold fact that rupures any ideology, pragmatically biased or not.

Reading Assignment for this week: 'Cancer Ward' by Aleksandr Solzhentisyn.

Let me know what you think.
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Post by Ceek » March 29, 2005, 10:01 am

Whateva. I am not going to get involved in some self-serving debate about yet another thing none of us have any control or vested interest in just so i can hear the sound of my own voice in my head as i read and reread my comment congratulating myself on the efficacy of my rhetoric. Instead i raise the opinion that you guys should just not think about it. Alternatively think about this - people in general imo are better off today than ever before surely this implies that we are doing something right?
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Post by MacDaddy » March 29, 2005, 10:30 am

keepinitneal wrote:Marco, blaming humanity for its own faults is not only misanthropic but is a straw man polemic par excellence.
Bullshit. If we do not blame humanity for its own faults then who do we blame? God? Certainly not if you insist (as do I mostly) on empirical verifiability. Further, we cannot blame the nebulous concept of 'humanity' for anything. We can only assign blame to individuals for individual acts.
keepinitneal wrote:Empirical verifiability of concrete human nature, evil, depraved, self-destructive, callous or whatever, always fails and is the root cause of the insustainability of all three systems insofar as they refuse to recognise the complexity of human experience.
I agree.
keepinitneal wrote:Capitalism and Communism, as extremes on a continuum of sorts that transcends the pragmatic are, granted, theoretically flawed. Point is, and Joe Slovo made this point twenty years ago, liberal reforms will never effectively eliminate the essential and undeniable injustice of the class struggle.
I deny the injustice of the class struggle. What is unjust about poor people wanting to get rich and rich people wanting to stay rich? Sure some rich people want to crush the poor. As some poor want to crush the rich. Allow people to pursue their goals as they see fit, and punish them when their goals damage others in society. This is the only system that can be sustained.

Once again defining anything in terms of broad groups, comprised of undefinable individuals, will always lead to generalisations that are meaningless when applied to specific situations.
keepinitneal wrote:Define 'class' however you will (and that's the start of a whole other topic - a highly pertinent one at that) but this is a fact. A hard cold fact that rupures any ideology, pragmatically biased or not.

Reading Assignment for this week: 'Cancer Ward' by Aleksandr Solzhentisyn.

Let me know what you think.
You have not phrased your argument correctly. Liberal reforms will never eliminate the class struggle is a better way to put it. Peppering your argument with emotive terminology (undeniable injustice?) only weakens your position. This is the language of the convert not the rational observer.

Whether the class stuggle is eliminated or not, the injustice of such a system is not undeniable, and canot be paraded as fact.

I won't be reading 'Cancer Ward', I have too many things that I must read, when I have free time I will read enjoyable things. Or not read at all. I know enough about communism and socialism to know that they are incredibly flawed systems. Reading more about them would only anger me.

To create a system of government, you need to first consider the basic nature of those who govern. A human being essentially is motivated to create a better life for themselves, not always at the expense of others, but the self is primary within the human psyche. Communism and socialism require human beings to subordinate themselves to ideas of the 'greater good'. This only happens very rarely. It is naive to imagine otherwise.

Also, look at CeeK's response above. It is probably the best one in this thread.

Unless Matthew begins telling you guys how gay you are. In which case that trumps everything.
.Matt wrote:you are all so wise. and unspeakably revolting, of course.

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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2005, 11:13 am

fuck but you people are faggots 8)

edit: also, i like this thread a lot.

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Post by Mr Dildo » March 29, 2005, 2:09 pm

CeeK wrote:Whateva. I am not going to get involved in some self-serving debate about yet another thing none of us have any control or vested interest in just so i can hear the sound of my own voice in my head as i read and reread my comment congratulating myself on the efficacy of my rhetoric.



Classic!!!!
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Post by karmapolice » July 9, 2005, 12:41 am

Even though i truly know virtually nothing about governmental systems and have never read the crap you people have i still think communism is a stupid fucking idea. really... do you think i would do things for other people? what makes you think anyone else would?

communism / socialism / some other fucking ism is the reason this country is going to shit...

i can only refer to this picture (which possibly doesn<b>[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]</b>t really relate but is still damn funny):
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