America etc.

Man-love over boy-sex? Semen better than Astroglide? Your mother's naked body more horrifying than a 747 full of infants exploding in mid-air and the debris raining down through razor sharp mesh wire? Discuss it here!
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Post by Tenacious B » November 15, 2005, 9:02 am

The essence of fascism, therefore, is that government should be the master, not the servant, of the people. Think about this. Does anyone in America really believe that this is not what we have now? Are Internal Revenue Service agents really our "servants"? Is compulsory "national service" for young people, which now exists in numerous states and is part of a federally funded program, not a classic example of coercing individuals to serve the state? Isn't the whole idea behind the massive regulation and regimentation of American industry and society the notion that individuals should be forced to behave in ways defined by a small governmental elite? When the nation's premier health-care reformer recently declared that heart bypass surgery on a 92-year-old man was "a waste of resources," wasn't that the epitome of the fascist ideal-that the state, not individuals, should decide whose life is worthwhile, and whose is a "waste"?

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 9:06 am

Where did you get that matt+? it is exactly how i feel. They hide behind 'democracy' as freedom but it isn't. They are controlled more than ever before and they think they have liberty. I mean the same happens here but to a lesser extent. I hate america and wish it would just implode.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by Tenacious B » November 15, 2005, 9:58 am

is that your caption, chris? because then you totally win.

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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 10:01 am

I don't think hating an entire nation is totally rational.
Yes, their government is insane.
Yes, they are very insular.
But they do have an amazing work ethic and a very open society (barring their aforementioned current fucked up government)
I meant to say more but I've got ot study.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 10:23 am

And Americans are making Oblivion.

This makes them OK in my book.

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 10:29 am

You guys just can't see how bad America is for the world. And I agree that it isn't only america and it isn't all americans. In the same way that it wasn't only Nazi germany and it wasn't all german's. It wasn't all South African's who perpetuated apartheid either. Point is they are the main nation that are ruining the world. I am not asking for people to change their views merely for them to be aware of the massive burdon that america is placing on future generations. We will look back in time with sadness at this time of capatalism and 'democracy'.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 10:48 am

Capitalism.
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 12:38 pm

I agree America currnetly for the world is not the best thing, esp with their policies towards Kyoto.

9/11 was a huge shock for Americans, they were suddenly made to realise that there is a world outside and that it could affect them. Unfortunately that effect was bad and that made them scared, hence, the current state of affairs.
But things will change, if anything, the current government has opened up some of America's eyes and made others realise that there is world out there that is not all bad, and that they should be more rational in there response.

or at least, I sure hope so.
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 12:41 pm

I hope so to but think that the opposite result is more likely.
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 12:54 pm

Not necessarily.

If you look at the recent elections, the Democrats made massive in-roads and Bush's popularity is truly in the doldrums now.
Hell, even on the religious from, most of the councilors who were on education boards pushing for Intelligent Design to be taugt go kicked out and replaced by people who don't have their heads stuck up their arses.

Even looking at the media, Fox News has been more and more outted as the mouthpiece of Rupert Murdoch and his Right wing views, the American people are starting to turn more and more towards less biased view points and news reports (ala BBC and the internet)

Then again, I'm in contact with largely educated (open minded) americans so my views could be skew.

PS. On the note of educated americans, the current government has been good in getting them off their collective asses. They have been shown what can happen if they don't vote and don't make their viewpoints heard.
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 1:11 pm

As i recall bush won the election easily. Also the amount of educated americans is far overshadowed by the amount of uneducated americans. You should read the literacy stats. For a 'first' world country it is scary.

With regard to their news broadcasts i have no access to them so i shouldn't comment. However i sincerly doubt that they have moved outside their propaganda based reporting. Try watch CNN sometime - we only get the international version and - it is still biased shit. My cousin lives in the states and told me recently that because the rating were better they have started including more and more celebrity news in all news broadcasts to keep their viewers wiewing and the numbers numbered.

I do realise that there are 'open-minded' americans but to a large extent they are letting these things happen because they are privledged within the societal make-up of the country. I mean i don't complain because i earn a higher salary than my maid, i should but i don't.

Neither of us is really in a position to state what it is like to be an american or to be part of the society (unless you are secretly american shivi ;)) but the fact of the matter is that this is how i see them and it doesn't surprise me that other cultures object to the imposition of western culture and capitalist (spelt correctly this time!!) principles on them/us.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by BadBoy » November 15, 2005, 1:37 pm

lets start by saying IMHO

At least at the moment the rat race is a game anybody ( country ) can opt out of at any point don<b>[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]</b>t be pissed cos america is kicking the crap out of evryone else attempting to play.
i don't complain because i earn a higher salary than my maid, i should but i don't.
this is only becuase you value the work you do equal to the value of the work she does that is your issue i value mine far higher as does most of the plannet

in short you have ( and the rest of the country) opted into the rat race cos we don<b>[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]</b>t like subsistance farming and like computer games, if you don<b>[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]</b>t like the rat race opt out with all other like minded people ( i don<b>[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]</b>t think you will find many) and live off the land - but soon you will be longing after a tractor to make the plowing easier and boom u r back in the race

that is all
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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 1:51 pm

I agree with Reg.

I love capitalism and democracy. Sure America has been a bit bad, and since they're the most powerful country in the world that makes them uber-bad. But they'll come right.

Soon China will be the most powerful. Then we can all start complaining about them.

Global warming? No bother. Once it starts affecting profits adversely, things will get sorted VERY quickly.

I don't worry about the world. I worry about affording the next amazing game and game system. The world will be fine, and if it isn't, to hell with it. I had a good time while I was here.
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Post by Paelleon » November 15, 2005, 2:10 pm

I'm trying to remember who said it, or where I read it - but alas my mind is terminally soft.

However, the gist of the argument was that democracy is a fundamentally flawed system of government. The life cycle of civilisations has shown that all democracies have failed and been replaced by imperialist government. In point of fact, each of the examples cited have since reverted to a democracy again.

The logical argument continues with the premise that the cycle will repeat given enough time.

I'm not sure how valid it is - but the point I'm trying (very unsucessfully) to make is that it is natural for citizens to become disillusioned with democracy and the capitalism which is part and parcel. It is equally likely that, should the citizens become disillusioned enough to revolt, that they will eventually fall into the capitalist cycle again - it is humanity's nature to be lazy.

It is also interesting to note that America is the world's longest standing democracy. If the aforementioned train of thought is accurate - the fallout of America's eventual fall into Imperialism will be catastrophic.

Capitalism may be a bane of human existance - but it is also the salvation of modern life.

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 2:21 pm

I think it is very smal minded to think that the only opiton besides capitalism is subsistance farming reg.

I can see i am never going to win this one with you guys but it was never my intention to win. All i want is to highlight the fact that by continuing to support a system where based on profits gained by exploitation we are in effect enslaving ourselves. As you so rightly point out SA and other emerging markets are jumping on the bandwagon as regards the almighty rat race but to be honest we are already too far behind. I mean if we still had all the resources that the first world pillaged from africa maybe we would stand a chance. There are people in America (i shouldn't single out america the whole time this is a first-world vs. third world debate but i like refering to america as the problem) who could literally buy South Africa and get change. Is that fair? Is that a fair starting point? I am sure that the answer is no. By buying into the system however we place ourselves in a disadvantaged position from which we can never escape. Capatilasm will not fall tomorrow.

Power is not owned it is exercised and until we start taking the power back then we are going to be little bitches. I do not want this.

There is no simple answer to this debate. Carry on supporting america's actions if that's what you want to do (and it seems that it is). I will never do so. The atrocities that they have created in my country and in other african countries is enough for me to wash my hands of them forever.

Of course i will continue to buy their games, dvd's and so on. But i will do so in the knowledge and with the believe that there is a better way that things could be done. If there were no america and no dvd's for us to watch then we wouldn't miss them and it is a testament to the insidious nature of capitalism. We make money because there is no way to survive without doing so, then we buy products that we only want because they exist. My ipod has brought me literally hours of joy but do i need it? If it didn't exist would i still be able to function? I think so.

If we carry on this way, eventually all the resources will be gone and there will be a whole bunch of really rich peopel who own everything, smiling and saying we know it was wrong but we couldn't help it, we wanted profits.

How's that for a non-response ;)

Also i take it you guys won't vote for me in the next elections. Hope i can get some of the black peopel to understand thatthey are enslaved by a system which is not of their creation.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 2:30 pm

The enslavement that you refer to is totally voluntary.

I think it was Satre who pointed out that we have a choice in everything, if you don't like life, end it, no one is stopping you. (I am not advocating you kill yourself here, just pointing out that you do have a choice in life, as in being enslaved by the American way)
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 2:38 pm

moved so girltron can post her wisdom.

Yes yes satre's existentialism. But what are our other options shivi? Can i just say oh well i don't believe in capatilism? Sorry i am not working. I will catch animals from farms and eat them. Live in any place i see fit? Existentialism is much harder to do than capatilism.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 2:38 pm

Chris. Beware of becoming enslaved to a theoretical standpoint. This sounds like Critical Psychology which is the most ridiculous and unsupportable load of hogwash I've ever heard. And considering I also did Psychology I have been exposed to a great deal of ridiculous and unsupportable hogwash.

No-one is enslaved to any capitalist system. Some people may become obsessed with certain aspects of capitalism, like cool products or profits, and enslave themselves to that ideal, but that is the fault of their own weak minds, not the system.

Capitalism allows one to buy as much or as little as one pleases, and has room for subsisence farmers too if that's their bag.

All products were originally invented, and we desire them because they now exist. Did anyone want to buy cars and houses before they were made? No. Can we live without 'em? Sure. But life is infinitely better with them in existence.

To be enslaved is to be forced into a situation in which you have no choice over your course of action. This is very different from willingly buying into a system.

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 2:42 pm

Shivi said:

Saying that one system is going to destroy humanity/future is pointless, what is the alternative.
Sure, communism/socialism offers us a way for us all to live in Harmony and happiness, but in both those systems an elite decides what is done with those resources. So then again you are subservient to the whims and powers of the few elite, who may not be rich now, but who yet again, are beyond your control.

and if you take your thinking to it's extreme, it's not only black people have been enslaved by a system not of their choosing, it's everyone.
Some people start off better than others, but we are all in this system from birth.
If people truly are sick of the rat race, then am sure, everyone and not only black people will vote for you.

I for one, am totally for a communist society where the future is thought about, resources allocated where they are needed (and not where they are wanted) and it's not the amount of money you have that governs your value.
Well, as long as I am the one allocating those scarce resources.Evillaugh

I think capitalism is about being able to allocate those scarce resources, but doing so means acquiring them first.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 2:45 pm

What is the alternative to capatilism marco if we aren't ensalved to it? Say i renounce capatilism what is my other option?

Come speak about this in debate club.
Renounce capitalism and live off the land. Or make your own self sustainable commune.

If you denounce the fundamentals of capitalism then you renounce any form of trading whatsoever.

We are willing participants in a system which has shown itself to be efficient and embraces freedom. This is not enslavement. Take a real slave and then let them live in a capitalist society. You wil find that they will rate their personal freedom much higher living in a capitalist society than when living in enforced labour conditions.

To ask what your other option is is a non-argument. If I say that there is a system to which there is no viable alternative, this does not in any way mean that this systm is wrong or 'enslaves' us.
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 2:49 pm

Ceek wrote:Existentialism is much harder to do than capatilism.
Yes, but that is your choice to choose to live in a system that is easy (but you don't like) versus one in which you have to slave your ass off (but one which offers everyone the same oppurtunities)

Am not a major student of anthropology/history, but I think were we all to head back to the beginnning and start again, we would end up here.
Some people would be better than others at tasks, diversification would occur, the barter system would break down to a more efficient and convenient system of exchange (ala money as we know it), some would acquire more than others, with more money/resources comes more power. And thus power would yet again shift to the hands of the few.

Humanity is inherently selfish, we want what we want, when we want it.
To hope that society will flourish (and maintain itself) where the needs of the many are superseded by the needs of the few is optimistic to say the least.
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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 2:49 pm

Ceek wrote:moved so girltron can post her wisdom.

Yes yes satre's existentialism. But what are our other options shivi? Can i just say oh well i don't believe in capatilism? Sorry i am not working. I will catch animals from farms and eat them. Live in any place i see fit? Existentialism is much harder to do than capatilism.
No, existentialism is fundamentally about man accepting total responsibility for his own actions and destiny without reference to higher powers or nebulous controlling forces.

You are not describing existentialism you are describing anarchy. If you want to do as you describe go and live in Zimbabwe, see how well its working for them.
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 2:50 pm

Okay. Answer me this marco. What choice does ntabiseng masimang have? He is born into a system where he is at an immediate disadvantage and most likely will never be able to live to his full potential.

Secondly, The system allows me to buy as much stuff as i wantby your own admission? How come i can't live in a mansion on northcliff hill then?

I agree with you as regards invention. I disagree with you about their implementation. Do we need to have a 6th season of "Life with Bonnie?" Is it a need that is being fulfilled? I don't think so. We should rather have spent the money improving the lifes of humans (in that specific case).

Shivi

I am not for communism either don't get me wrong. I kinda like some aspects of society the way they are now but at the moment profits are more important than peopel. And that is wrong. You guys probably agree with this point. As i have said before capatilsm can't fall tommorrow it would leave us with nothing.

Everyone.

You go ahead as if there is nothing wrong with the system and get worked up when i start pointing out flaws. Is it because you are so incredibally happy with the system? Is humanity better off because of the system?

I wish i had more time to go into this but will try post again in a little while.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 2:55 pm

On the point of the System (the American way) being unfair, from a business point of view, my dad has worked (and lived) in India, the UK, the Middle East, SA and (now) in the US.

And by far the most open and liberal system he has found is the States. Of all the aforementioned, it is the most open system, where information truly is free (and not dependent on whose hand you grease)
You want to buy a house, want to know what the previous owner bought it for, what changes he has made to it, what does the insurance company say about it; it's all there for your to access.

It is much more of a merit-ocracy than either of the above. Where what you can do matters more than who you know or are.

and that is a freedom of untold proportions.
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 3:00 pm

I have seriously lost the plot here!! Perhaps you will agree with that?

There is no alternative to capatilism marco. Living in a self-sustaining commune is all very well but where would i get the land? I would have to buy it wouldn't i?

You seem to be advocating capatilism as if it has no flaws. I am merely advocating a capatilist society in which humans are taken into account. Not a system where money is the only important thing. Without realising it we have bought into a system which enslaves (perhaps there is a better way of saying this but i can't think of one) us. If you think capatilism is perfect then you are mistaken.

You were born into a particular place in society and without that you may not be where you are today. Furthermore we are all rich peopel with good jobs. Do you think the system is as well advocated by the unemployed? The sick? The hungry? Many other cliches?

I am sure by the time i post this there will be a couple responses so i will get to them soon.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 3:01 pm

Shivi, i assume your dad was dirt poor and struggling to survive when he moved into the american economy?
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Post by MacDaddy » November 15, 2005, 3:01 pm

Ceek wrote:Okay. Answer me this marco. What choice does ntabiseng masimang have? He is born into a system where he is at an immediate disadvantage and most likely will never be able to live to his full potential.
Tough shit. In this system he as the oportunity to excel if he works hard enough and is lucky enough. This is not enslavement.
Ceek wrote:Secondly, The system allows me to buy as much stuff as i wantby your own admission? How come i can't live in a mansion on northcliff hill then?
Because you haven't worked hard enough or been lucky enough.
Ceek wrote:I agree with you as regards invention. I disagree with you about their implementation. Do we need to have a 6th season of "Life with Bonnie?" Is it a need that is being fulfilled? I don't think so. We should rather have spent the money improving the lifes of humans (in that specific case).
I'm no altruist. I am interesed in improving my own lot in life. I imagine the 6th season of Life with Bonnie improved the lives of those involved in the show. It gave them salaries and jobs and a modicum of fame. Capitalism is set up so that people must help themselves. My heart bleeds for no-one other than myself and my loved ones (and you are one of that number).
Ceek wrote:Shivi

I am not for communism either don't get me wrong. I kinda like some aspects of society the way they are now but at the moment profits are more important than peopel. And that is wrong. You guys probably agree with this point. As i have said before capatilsm can't fall tommorrow it would leave us with nothing.
You make the point we have been making all along.
Ceek wrote:Everyone.

You go ahead as if there is nothing wrong with the system and get worked up when i start pointing out flaws. Is it because you are so incredibally happy with the system? Is humanity better off because of the system?

I wish i had more time to go into this but will try post again in a little while.
I am totally happy with Capitalism and can imagine no system that is superior to it. It offers substantive human freedom, and the opportunity for those who are talented and abitious enough to succeed. Humanity is hugely better off with capitalism in place. Communism has proved to be a dismal failure, as it offers no incentives to excel. Feudalism is similar to this 'enslavement' that you seem to have been indoctrinated to perceive.

Describe a better system than one in which human freedom and open opportunity for all is paramount.

And don't give me any bleeding heart bullshit about 'Ntabiseng Manana' or whatever. If he is unhappy he is free to do something about changing that situation. This is the opportunity that capitalism affords him.
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 3:02 pm

Ceek wrote:Okay. Answer me this marco. What choice does ntabiseng masimang have? He is born into a system where he is at an immediate disadvantage and most likely will never be able to live to his full potential.
If SA was a truly open ended society and Ntabiseng had something worthwhile to offer, then Yes. he would be able to achievehis potential.
Ceek wrote: Secondly, The system allows me to buy as much stuff as i wantby your own admission? How come i can't live in a mansion on northcliff hill then?
Because you haven't acquired the resources yet to do so. I do not see that as a falling in the system.
Ceek wrote:Do we need to have a 6th season of "Life with Bonnie?" Is it a need that is being fulfilled? I don't think so. We should rather have spent the money improving the lifes of humans (in that specific case).
It isn't a need being fulfilled, but it is fulfilling the wants of people who have worked hard and acquired the resources to see their wants fulfilled. yes, the greater good may have been fulfilled by feeding/clothing the needy, but the fault then lies in people, not in the system.
If the same people had demanded that the poor be fed instead of another season of 'Life of Bonnie' it would have happened.


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Man. this is an awesome thread.
I love Oddville!!!
But I gotta study, reall, really gotta study.

So cheers all.
Born helpless, nude and unable to provide for himself, the poster eventually overcame these handicaps to become the man of the hour, the soup of the day and the freak of the week

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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 3:07 pm

Ceek wrote:Shivi, i assume your dad was dirt poor and struggling to survive when he moved into the american economy?
Strangely enough : yes.
He comes from a small, small village in India (just south of Kashmir) The village is small/remote enough that when I used to visit there as a small child the people in the village had a hard time believing in airplanes (with the advent of TV that has changed)
My dad's father was a farmer, who died when my dad was 10. He left behind a wife , 6 daugter and my dad. My dad worked hard and got to where he is by hard work.
It's strange to hear about his school friends who are still farming away on the backs of buffaloes and are bus conductors and the like.

I, on the other hand, am riding on his intellect and hard work.
I can only hope to achieve loftier levels having been given the jump start he never had.
Born helpless, nude and unable to provide for himself, the poster eventually overcame these handicaps to become the man of the hour, the soup of the day and the freak of the week

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 3:09 pm

I love arguing with you guys!!! it has improved my day substantially.

What you can't see Marco is that you are so deeply entrenched in the system that it seems correct to you. As you so rightly say why should you care about anything besides your woman, your buddies and your family? You shouldn't have to. The system should. The system is flawed because telkom released 7.2 billian rand profit and not one cent of that will go to improving the lives of the people who really need it. Again as you rightly point out it will improve the lives of the directors of the company, the share holders, the peopel who work at Telkom, hell the people with phone lines may even benefit. But what of the disenfranchised masses? Give them a trade union and make them think someone is looknig out for them? Bullshit. We look out for ourselves but the less fortunate do not have this opportunity. And to say that the system is based on merit is to exclude forces such as nepotism. How many times have you heard or experienced the saying "its who you know"? How is it a fair system if who you know determines your level of success.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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