America etc.

Man-love over boy-sex? Semen better than Astroglide? Your mother's naked body more horrifying than a 747 full of infants exploding in mid-air and the debris raining down through razor sharp mesh wire? Discuss it here!
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 3:13 pm

The only reason Telkom can post those profits is because it is a monopoly protected by the government i.e. it's not open to market forces.
If capitalism was truly allowed to reign, the market would be flooded by competitors, slashing prices and offering services that would enable/empower people.

As for 'it's who you know', but that's humanity and how it functions.
NO system is going to be immune to that.
and like I said, from the experiences I hear from my dad/bro/mum; the US has less of that than SA/UK/MiddleEast/India
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 3:14 pm

Damn you, Oddville.
I swear I study now.
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 3:18 pm

Shivi, that is a great story. But do you think that he would be able to do that in today's environment? Better yet would he be able to do it in 10 years time? Strat with nothing? I am sure you are aware that the inequality between the richest of the rich and the poorest of the poor is getting much worse. I want to say that in 1980 it was not unsual for the head of a ompany to earn 20 times the average worker and now it is 84 times but i can't find my reference and am not even sure that is right. We are lucky to be where we are in the system. Ntabiseng wouldn't be able to go to university becrause he had to start worknig at age 6 to support his family you dig?
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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 3:20 pm

Doesn't have to be Telkom. Microsoft has billions in the bank. Suppose they are a monopoly in some regards as well, but the point is that a lot more money goes into profiteering (spelling??) than humanitarian aims.
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Post by girltron » November 15, 2005, 3:34 pm

The American Government: A place where war is valued over education, the gap between the working poor and the filthy rich is widening, and resources are allocated to perpetuate youth and not wisdom.

What I have just described is the exact way that all Empires in the history of the world have ever operated. They all fell from power. Just as the US will eventually fall from power. America is enjoying it's apex. The backlash (as so lovingly illustrated in this thread) has begun. It's only a matter of time.

If you think that all your problems were caused by the US, you are blind. It was a joint effort.

Take for example, the UN. It has, since it's advent in the 30's, only worked to forge shady contracts between "allied nations" in an effort to conform and reform all nations governments in such a way that commerce would flow freely and war could be no more. What's been the result of all this proactive meddling? More war in the last century than any period of history...combined. A world economy where only the most elite of developed contries stand to benefit. An atmosphere of fear wherein those with the most money can call the shots. I wouldn't call this capitalism. I would call this terrorism. All brought to you by the very organization which set forth to abolish it. An organization made up of hundreds of the world's nations, including SA.

Now, you can say that it's America's Capitalist/Fascist regime which has brought "enslavement" and hardship to your people, but it's that same regime which brings you all the nice things you like to consume (video games, for one!). Also, where was America when Holland, England, France and Germany were raping Africa of it's natural resources and "colonising" it's people? Minding it's own damn business, that's where.
It was only later on when we got wise to the opportunities of enslavement (as practiced for centuries by Europe) that we came to Africa and raped away. Once we got what we wanted we washed our hands of it.

So, today, what is done here may affect you...but it's second hand. At this point in time, the government (and the UN) are far too interested in the Middle East to care what goes on in any part of Africa.

Speaking of the Middle East, be glad that America didn't try to enforce a "democratic" government on SA, as is being done in Iraq right now. We all see how that's turned out, haven't we?

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Post by girltron » November 15, 2005, 3:38 pm

Ceek wrote:Doesn't have to be Telkom. Microsoft has billions in the bank. Suppose they are a monopoly in some regards as well, but the point is that a lot more money goes into profiteering (spelling??) than humanitarian aims.
Even so, Microsoft pumps more money into education, medical research, healthcare reform and local and national charities than any other organization (including the federal government) in the nation. On top of this, Microsoft was one of three major companies during the recession of the late 90's/early 00's that kept the Seattle Area economy from sinking into the Mariana Trench.

Now ask me why I don't hate Microsoft.

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Post by girltron » November 15, 2005, 3:45 pm

theonetheonly wrote:I agree America currnetly for the world is not the best thing, esp with their policies towards Kyoto.

9/11 was a huge shock for Americans, they were suddenly made to realise that there is a world outside and that it could affect them. Unfortunately that effect was bad and that made them scared, hence, the current state of affairs.
But things will change, if anything, the current government has opened up some of America's eyes and made others realise that there is world out there that is not all bad, and that they should be more rational in there response.

or at least, I sure hope so.
This is wrong.

9/11 was only a surprise for those living under a rock. We all knew it was coming. It was a foregone conclusion when Bush took office. It is a known fact that Middle Eastern terrorists hate Texans.

What's more, it is a proven fact that Bush and his homeland security administration knew the time, place and method of the attacks weeks before it happened.

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Post by Ceek » November 15, 2005, 3:46 pm

Girltron as i said in one of my posts i just like to lable the first world with the term America. You are right it is not just them and i am glad to see that there is someone who agrees (a little at least) with me. Good on ya.

Don't try and act as if Microsoft is a bastion of altruism though. I think we all know that microsoft stole much of its original software and continues to have highly unethical business practices in a number of countries all over the world. Having said that you are right in that it does more than most companies to try and improve the world.

With regards to enslavement i think i am being misquoted massively here. What do you call a system in which you have no chice? Or if i was willing to be a bit loose about my defenition of choice then what do you call a system where the place and time in which you are born and live determines to alarge extent what you are capable of achieving? I call it enslavement. I watched a great documentary about some boxer who rose up through the childrens army in tunisia, sought asylum in US and is now a championship boxer. But he had to go to America to do it. A once resource rich country tunisia has been in war for a million years and all after they were 'liberated' by colonialism. Capatilism is nothing but a modern and more powerful form of colonialism. The fact that more of us get to benefit from it is neither here nor there. If i were in pawer i would do things differently.
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Post by Tenacious B » November 15, 2005, 4:04 pm

i'd just like to post that due to the insane quality of this thread and the joy it has brought me i'm doubling the space everyone has for their personal messages.

i love all of you.

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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 4:12 pm

girltron wrote:
Even so, Microsoft pumps more money into education, medical research, healthcare reform and local and national charities than any other organization (including the federal government) in the nation.
I don't hate M$ either.
But the charity thing ain't M$, it's the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation which has nothing to do with M$, apart from it being the source of the old Bill's wealth.
It's just one guy donating to charity.
BTW, the Foundation puts more money into Africa than the WHO (but what did you expect from an '80's band, anyway)
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 4:15 pm

girltron wrote:
This is wrong.

9/11 was only a surprise for those living under a rock. We all knew it was coming. It was a foregone conclusion when Bush took office. It is a known fact that Middle Eastern terrorists hate Texans.

What's more, it is a proven fact that Bush and his homeland security administration knew the time, place and method of the attacks weeks before it happened.
I come to my defense.
I haven't heard any conclusive proof as to Bush knowing about the time, place and method. Yes, there were rumblings of an attack and how disgruntled Islamic fundamentalists were with the US, but they had been there since good old Clinton (Now, THAT was a president)
Quite a diff from it being a foregone conclusion.
I never heard anyone before 9/11 going on about how the US was gonna be attacked soon.
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Post by Paelleon » November 15, 2005, 5:04 pm

This debate rocks - but is starting to become a bit confusing for a poor sod with only half a brain (ie me) to keep track of.

Are we now debating the merits of capitalism by looking at donations to charity?

I'd like to move the debate on to firmer surface and rockier waters.

Let's review capitalism and any other economic system. Why is capitalism more attractive in the modern era? Is it perhaps because it allows for fairer remuneration based on skills; as opposed to need? Capitalism drives invention, personal improvement and the furthering of society's norms. At the moment - society and business view education as paramount; second only to experience - and pay accordingly. Is this a bad thing? Marketing is responsible for most of what Ceek has been targeting - not capitalism per se.

When debating the good or bad in democracy, let us not equate the governmental system with capitalism. It is possible for both to exist independently of each other. Democracy must be compared to other forms of government - be it socialism, imperialism or even consitutional monarchy. A government of the people, by the people. We could extend the debate to cover how modern democracy falls far short of reaching that ideal, but I'm not qualified to say much on that.

My 2c.

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Post by BadBoy » November 15, 2005, 5:52 pm

ok

<earth shattering news> Marco and reg agree </earth shattering news>

one very large misconception / bad termonology needs to be fixed right now and that is that there is no country (nor has there beed afaik ) that is a purely capatialst, as capatialsim by definition means little to no goverment.

Chris the problem you have is not with capatilasim but with corperate governance and the whole shares / shareholder stock market balls up ( but i can<b>[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]</b>t think of anything better)

monopolies/oligopolies are bad as they create dictators which im sure most of us will agree is bad

without the aboration of monopolies/oligopolies in capatilasim is the perfect democaracy as it enables you to vote with your money and the more you have the more vote you have
There are people in America (i shouldn't single out america the whole time this is a first-world vs. third world debate but i like refering to america as the problem) who could literally buy South Africa and get change. Is that fair? Is that a fair starting point?
and next you will want to see crap cricket players being allowed to chuck the ball becuase it is not fair that they can't do as well as the players who have more talent
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Post by girltron » November 15, 2005, 5:53 pm

theonetheonly wrote:
girltron wrote:
This is wrong.

9/11 was only a surprise for those living under a rock. We all knew it was coming. It was a foregone conclusion when Bush took office. It is a known fact that Middle Eastern terrorists hate Texans.

What's more, it is a proven fact that Bush and his homeland security administration knew the time, place and method of the attacks weeks before it happened.
I come to my defense.
I haven't heard any conclusive proof as to Bush knowing about the time, place and method. Yes, there were rumblings of an attack and how disgruntled Islamic fundamentalists were with the US, but they had been there since good old Clinton (Now, THAT was a president)
Quite a diff from it being a foregone conclusion.
I never heard anyone before 9/11 going on about how the US was gonna be attacked soon.
I will look for a link for you, if there still is one. I may have a friend who mirrored the info. We'll see. Approximately 10 days after the attack, government documents were released which proved this fact. Though I am, without a doubt, fascinated by conspiracy theories, this is not one of them. It is a fully formed fact.

Rumblings are one thing. Knowing and bracing yourself is entirely different. It was the latter that went on here. As soon as George Dubya swore in, the theats started rolling in. They were not the empty, nothing's gonna happen sort. They were specific and obvious. We went on Orange Alert about 13 times before 9/11. It was apparent that it was just a matter of time.
Therefore, I was NOT surprised about the attacks. The magnitude and destruction of them, yes. The sheer pandemonium caused by them, yes. The fact that I lost exactly 2 highschool friends, one cousin and one uncle in them, yes. Those things were shocking. But the fact that they happened, no.

And, let's leave Clinton out of it. He was the only American president in the past 20 years who maintained a tenuous, but mostly peaceful coexistence with the Middle East. Let's go back to the Reagan era, where Bush Sr. was VP, and we made some ever lasting Middle Eastern enemies, thanks to the Iran Contra Scandal. Of course, it's more complicated than that, but if you want a starting point, there you have it. While I'm at it, I'm going to call a spade a spade. This whole war thing is a vendetta which was picked right back up as soon as Junior took office. Notice how his "war on terrorism" turned into something different altogether? What ever happened to tracking down BinLaden and Al Quaeda? That kind of got brushed under the rug in favor of something closer to the administration's heart: Supremacy over foreign oil and the pulverising of Sadam Hussein's administration. What the hell does he have to do with anything, besides being the one that got away.

And by the way, the only reason Bush won his second election is because he managed to get us embroiled in a conflict with no end in sight. He used the propaganda and resulting hysteria of it to convince the masses of under-educated, fanatically patriotic, red-staters that if he (GOD FORBID) gave up office, the whole damn country would fall under attack (remember, the towel heads have still got NUKES!!) and we'd all die. Talk about Wag the Dog!

I won't even get going on his first illegal win in 2000.
:exhale:



And re: Microsoft. I'm not trying to paint them as the ultimate altruistic organization. They are not. And yes, it is Microsoft that gives Millions to charity and other humanitarian causes (tax write off/good press). It is altogether separate from the BAMG Org, which gives many more millions.

MS HAS behaved badly. I totally agree with that. But they are also getting raped for Billions by pirating, etc. In fact, the copy of MS Office I'm running on my PC right now is pirated (cause I got sick of openoffice.org and REFUSED to pay $120 for MS Office). I consider the pirating Kharma.

As for all their badness, it is not something peculiar to them. Any other corporation which finds itself in the same profitable position acts in a similar way. Huge profit margins breed bad habits. It is the nature of capitalism. Along with the good comes some very bad bads.
The thing is: you can go on and on about how terrible MS is. I've heard it all and I don't entirely disagree with it. But at this point in time, the pros outweigh the cons.

It is the same with Capitalism. In this modern era: the pros outweigh the cons.


EDIT: I wholeheartedly agree with Marco and Reg on the point of marketing vs capitalism.

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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 6:11 pm

girltron wrote: Rumblings are one thing. Knowing and bracing yourself is entirely different. It was the latter that went on here. As soon as George Dubya swore in, the theats started rolling in. They were not the empty, nothing's gonna happen sort. They were specific and obvious. We went on Orange Alert about 13 times before 9/11. It was apparent that it was just a matter of time.
Therefore, I was NOT surprised about the attacks. The magnitude and destruction of them, yes. The sheer pandemonium caused by them, yes. The fact that I lost exactly 2 highschool friends, one cousin and one uncle in them, yes. Those things were shocking. But the fact that they happened, no.
Not really possible as the alert system was only initiated after 9/11
Quoting the Wiki here :
The system was created by Presidential Directive six months after the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, to provide a "comprehensive and effective means to disseminate information regarding the risk of terrorist acts to Federal, State, and local authorities and to the American people." It was unveiled March 12, 2002, by Tom Ridge, then the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security, but responsibility for developing, implementing and managing the system was given to the U.S. Attorney General.

In January 2003, the newly-formed Department of Homeland Security began administering the system. The decision to publicly announce threat conditions is made case-by-case by the Secretary of Homeland Security in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security. [Homeland Security Presidential Directive-5]


and yes, I do not live in the states, but a large proportion of my family (icluding mum, dad and bro) So I did and still do get constant updates on goings on there. Granted not the same as living there and being immersed in the culture, but I do get my fair share,

And about a month after 9/11, I was in the states for about 3 months and like the rest of the US, was glued to the TV about the theories and iplications of 9/11 and I swear I cannot remember a single news item regarding concrete prior knowledge regarding the event.

But please don't get me wrong.
I abhor Bush and his cronies. The way the US media has totally forgotten the initial reason to go to war (WMD's and Al Qaeda) and swallowed the new bunk (Freedom and democracy for an enslaved people) is deplorable.

Capitalism rocks!
Long Live Jon Stewart!!!
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Post by theonetheonly » November 15, 2005, 6:17 pm

Paelleon wrote: I'd like to move the debate on to firmer surface and rockier waters.

Let's review capitalism and any other economic system. Why is capitalism more attractive in the modern era? Is it perhaps because it allows for fairer remuneration based on skills; as opposed to need? Capitalism drives invention, personal improvement and the furthering of society's norms. At the moment - society and business view education as paramount; second only to experience - and pay accordingly. Is this a bad thing? Marketing is responsible for most of what Ceek has been targeting - not capitalism per se.

When debating the good or bad in democracy, let us not equate the governmental system with capitalism. It is possible for both to exist independently of each other. Democracy must be compared to other forms of government - be it socialism, imperialism or even consitutional monarchy. A government of the people, by the people. We could extend the debate to cover how modern democracy falls far short of reaching that ideal, but I'm not qualified to say much on that.

My 2c.
Good points.
When i finish my medical career (in 2 days time) I will get back to you.

This thread is R0XX0RZ!!!!!1!
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Post by girltron » November 16, 2005, 1:02 am

theonetheonly wrote:
girltron wrote: Rumblings are one thing. Knowing and bracing yourself is entirely different. It was the latter that went on here. As soon as George Dubya swore in, the theats started rolling in. They were not the empty, nothing's gonna happen sort. They were specific and obvious. We went on Orange Alert about 13 times before 9/11. It was apparent that it was just a matter of time.
Therefore, I was NOT surprised about the attacks. The magnitude and destruction of them, yes. The sheer pandemonium caused by them, yes. The fact that I lost exactly 2 highschool friends, one cousin and one uncle in them, yes. Those things were shocking. But the fact that they happened, no.
Not really possible as the alert system was only initiated after 9/11
Quoting the Wiki here :
The system was created by Presidential Directive six months after the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, to provide a "comprehensive and effective means to disseminate information regarding the risk of terrorist acts to Federal, State, and local authorities and to the American people." It was unveiled March 12, 2002, by Tom Ridge, then the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security, but responsibility for developing, implementing and managing the system was given to the U.S. Attorney General.

In January 2003, the newly-formed Department of Homeland Security began administering the system. The decision to publicly announce threat conditions is made case-by-case by the Secretary of Homeland Security in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security. [Homeland Security Presidential Directive-5]


and yes, I do not live in the states, but a large proportion of my family (icluding mum, dad and bro) So I did and still do get constant updates on goings on there. Granted not the same as living there and being immersed in the culture, but I do get my fair share,

And about a month after 9/11, I was in the states for about 3 months and like the rest of the US, was glued to the TV about the theories and iplications of 9/11 and I swear I cannot remember a single news item regarding concrete prior knowledge regarding the event.

But please don't get me wrong.
I abhor Bush and his cronies. The way the US media has totally forgotten the initial reason to go to war (WMD's and Al Qaeda) and swallowed the new bunk (Freedom and democracy for an enslaved people) is deplorable.

Capitalism rocks!
Long Live Jon Stewart!!!

:sigh:
Hyperbole used for the purpose of illustration. The point I was making is that we, the savvy part of the American public, were quite aware of the situation before 9/11. As was Bush. Check out these links for more info. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/ ... 9294.shtml
http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/911bush.html

At one point the Daily Breifing documents were shown on CBS and their website. It was taken down shortly after it was posted online...which is why I'm looking for someone who mirrored it.



Anyway, for some reason, I always find myself defending things that I don't really care about. I suppose it's because there are often such extreme views expressed that it comes off as fanatical to me, and I experience this incredible urge to contradict it, just for the sake of balance.

The bottom line: America is a money grubbing, power hungry, war-mongering, selfish nation which claims to have the best interest of the world at heart, but really only does what it does to stay ahead. This means perpetuating the highly successful, highly lucrative framework for capitalism, while spreading their brand of 'democracy' to the world.

But it doesn't really matter, does it? The Universe craves balance. As much as I disagree with my government's policy and behavior, I can't help but enjoy reaping the benefits. It has been proven that nothing I can do will make much of a difference, so I might as well go with the flow. All I can do is be aware and know when enough is enough. So far, I haven't gotten my fill.

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Post by Ceek » November 16, 2005, 9:24 am

I love this thread. I am glad that we are all able to form our own views. It has reminded me of the good in people and the autonomy of the self.
































p.s. You are all slaves!! BWhahahahahahah.
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Post by MacDaddy » November 16, 2005, 10:22 am

Just another quick thought.

You guys are talking about 'the system' as though it actually exists. 'The System' is the assumed collective functioning of a huge mass of individual humans. Human who are free and who operate under vastly different conditions. As this thread demonstrates, we all think slightly or vastly different things.

There is no 'system' other than a broad generalisation about how our society functions. Remember that 'society' is a similarly nebulous concept.

Trying to change 'the system' is futile and foolish. If you want to argue that this system is based on our law, you will find that (in South Africa at least) our laws give us immense freedom, and generally only forbid practices that infringe on the freedom of others. Once again this is generally, and not strictly, true.

Your point about the growing wage gap demonstrates a statistical anomaly alone. Generally those who are poor tend to remain poor, while those who are better off and have greater access to resources tend to enrich themselves. If one point remains static while the other point continues to move on an upward trajectory, the distance between them grows. This does not mean that the poor are worse off than before, but rather that the rich and middle class are better off. The wage gap demostrates very little in terms of the plight of the poor. The better off parts of society also fund large scale social welfare programmes that infinitely improve the lives of the destitute.

Capitalism guarantees equal opportunity in its purest form. It does not guarantee equal shares of resources or access thereto. Asking if Shiv's dad could still get rich in todays society is just silly. Of course he could. There are countless examples of rags to riches stories that occur every day, and will continue to do so if capitalism prevails.

Anyway, don't give too much credence to ideas of 'the system'. We are all collectively the system, and this means that the system is a multiplicity of different things.

<amazing>Also I once again agree with Reg.</amazing>

I also have no problem with America. I have a problem with ignorant and foolish Americans, in the same way that I have problems with ignorant and foolish South Africans/Italians/Greeks/Africans/etc.

This is not a slur against Danele as she is evidently neither of those things.

And BTW you guys are just so gay it's unbeleivable :pope:
.Matt wrote:you are all so wise. and unspeakably revolting, of course.

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Post by Ceek » November 16, 2005, 10:35 am

I will reply to this when i get back from WITS but i disagree with you on a number of points.
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Post by MacDaddy » November 16, 2005, 11:36 am

Ceek wrote:I will reply to this when i get back from WITS but i disagree with you on a number of points.
This is because you have become enslaved by your ideology. :banjo:
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Post by theonetheonly » November 16, 2005, 1:31 pm

I have much to say but am too giddy about the fact that after tomorrow I am FREEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
man, I'm gonna get slaughtered tomorrow night.

and now back to your regular scheduled programming:

Girltron : Looking at those articles I will concede that 'yes, the government did know something about an attack involving airplanes'
And as the article states, the government knew something but the general populace was not informed.
And as for the import of the reports, the article points out repeatedly that aside from a passing mention from one guy in the field about the possibility of planes flying into buildings and a report published 2 YEARS earlier, there was no indication/portent for the type of attack that 9/11 turned out to be.
I would also like to know how many of these reports were published, how many warning of other types of attacks that did NOT come true, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So yes, from the years following the US's 1998 attack on Al Qaeda camps, with the bombings in Yemen and other embassies, the US, at large, knew that the Islamic Fundamentalists were pissed off with them (and using planes was one of their many possible options) but no, I did not see any evidence for the populace (educated or not) expecting an attack of the magnitude or relevance of 9/11.

Aside from that, totally with you about the US being power-hungry, money grabbing and promoting their brand of democracy.
But I still think that that nation still has things that SA can learn from on an economic/business front.
Last edited by theonetheonly on November 16, 2005, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Born helpless, nude and unable to provide for himself, the poster eventually overcame these handicaps to become the man of the hour, the soup of the day and the freak of the week

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theonetheonly
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Post by theonetheonly » November 16, 2005, 1:37 pm

Marco, I agree with you totally.
Esp about equal opportunity rather than equal distribution of wealth.

Only thing i disagree with is that I think the level of Gayness is totally believable.
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Post by MacDaddy » November 16, 2005, 2:42 pm

Damn that I before E bullshit! :rasp:
.Matt wrote:you are all so wise. and unspeakably revolting, of course.

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Post by Ceek » November 16, 2005, 3:02 pm

MacDaddy wrote:Damn that I before E bullshit! :rasp:
I always preferred beer before E.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by Rebel Pope » November 16, 2005, 3:44 pm

Devil's advocate time:

Capitalism is good for the human race for one simple reason; It forces humans to compete against one another and reveals the winners as the winners and losers as the losers.
The human race is where it is, the top of the food chain, because of its ability to adapt. Regardless of the situation the human being who is best able to adapt will thrive and those who are least capable of adapting to that system will fail. With Capitalism the successes and failures in human society are all too obvious to see. Their Darwinian failure is marked in their shabby clothes, lack of an education, lack of a home and yes, lack of a computer.
Nobody wants to breed with the homeless (Matt excluded) and that's the way it should be, they don't deserve it, they are the least capable human beings. In other societies the failures may be hidden through the fact that they are granted vast government subsidies because of their failure (Socialism) or through the fact that those who are successful are punished and brought down to the level of the failures so everyone can be equal (as in communism).
Let the poor die, ultimately it will ensure that the ability to adapt will continue to thrive within humanity and we will go on as a species.
"Boxers don't have sex before a fight, do you know why that is? They don't fancy each other."
- Jimmy Carr

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Post by theonetheonly » November 16, 2005, 3:48 pm

MacDaddy wrote:Damn that I before E bullshit! :rasp:
except after C,
and words that sound like 'ay'
like neighbour and weigh :gentleman:
Born helpless, nude and unable to provide for himself, the poster eventually overcame these handicaps to become the man of the hour, the soup of the day and the freak of the week

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