reglious belief and IQ inversly proportional

Man-love over boy-sex? Semen better than Astroglide? Your mother's naked body more horrifying than a 747 full of infants exploding in mid-air and the debris raining down through razor sharp mesh wire? Discuss it here!
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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 1:41 pm

i can't explain that either marco ...

my original point was that intelligence requires proof for these things, and when dealing with the supernatural, there can be no proof.

Einsteins theory of relativity and quantam mechanics propose several accepted behaviours, that cannot be observed and therefore remain unproven.

We accept THEM however.

I can show you a million people who have there prayers answered and feel the same way i do. This is equally valid as your argument in that regard.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 3, 2006, 2:31 pm

masterb wrote:I can show you a million people who have there prayers answered and feel the same way i do. This is equally valid as your argument in that regard.
I know I said I wouldn't reply, but I'm afraid I can't resist.

So you are saying that some people have their prayers answered and some don't. Since everyone we're discussing here is devout, and moreover a devout Christian that supports your precise belief system, we still have a scenario in which some people have answered prayers and some do not.

This is the position as you have stated it.

Tell me then, how does this position differ from blind luck?
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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 2:41 pm

I still think capitalism is fundamentally flawed ;).
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 2:44 pm

LOL

i wrestle with this question every day too ... it doesn't make sense to me, and i cannot pass judgement on the way these people are praying ...

perhaps they are praying out of need as opposed to belief in deliverance? or they are praying without expectation, or belief that God can in fact save their lives, God abhors doubtful and non-expectant prayer.

Perhaps they are in heaven now, and that's where God wants them.

I don't pretend to understand how God works, I just know that my prayers are regularly answered ... and real and tangible works of God happen in my life regularly.

It is very very easy to chalk this up to blind luck, it depends on whether you believe in the Bible (which you don't) and believe that through Jesus you can achieve salvation (which you don't) ...

As I said before, you can't prove anything supernatural, especially to someone as intelligent as you Mac Daddy.

it is FAR more comfortable to let our brains just chalk it up to blind luck.

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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 2:49 pm

Please pray that we whitewash england and ireland in the N. Hemsphere tour? Oh and pray for both WCs as well.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by Tenacious B » November 3, 2006, 2:49 pm

i dunno, you could prove something supernatural to me if you had definite proof.

i'd believe god exists if there was something, anything, that differentiated from pure blind chance.

as it is, there isn't anything. and religions have taken that chance and given it a name and a dogma and a history without any real reason to. i could invent a religion tomorrow that has all the same hallmarks, and just as much validity, but we couldn't call it a religion; it would be too small.

so what do we call a small religion? a cult.

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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 2:51 pm

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During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 2:52 pm

Believing in god is gay. And not believing in god is gay.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 2:58 pm

Ceek wrote:Please pray that we whitewash england and ireland in the N. Hemsphere tour? Oh and pray for both WCs as well.
inadvertantly Chris has stumbled on why I don't think all prayers are in fact answered ;)

because they come with that sort of attitude! LOL ... no offense man, but hey it's worth a shot!

that's where the Bible comes in Matt... it explicitly states that you need to accept God through blind faith for him to reveal himself to you, which I have, and have satisfactorily proven to myself that it does work!

also, you are not the Son of God, as Jesus was absolutely in my opinion.

And yes, according to my beliefs, your cult is distasteful to the biblical God, because it is in no way biblical.

Even if it makes people the nicest most giving and incredibly good people ever.

And also as I have said, that acceptance of Jesus, as the bible says, is the only way God can reveal himself to you, so your cult would not have a tangible presence of God within it, so you would continue to never feel any supernatural presence like I do, which is the beauty of my religion.

i was chatting to rashad, the resident muslim at our house, and he was saying that not once has he felt the presence of God in his life. For a man so staunchly religious, I felt so badly for him, because he deserves it more than most.
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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:00 pm

oh one last thing, i'm saying the realisation of prayer and a tangible feeling of the presence of God in my life is proof enough for me.

And I HAD to take a giant leap of faith to achieve it.

as i said, it's much much much more comfortable for our brains to chalk it up to blind chance.

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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 3:02 pm

So praying for an X-box is fine but praying for the bokke to win is not? Vengeful god why do you forsake us so???

Also what if you live in China and never get a chance to read the bible? Then god won't help you? Suppose he doesn't want all these Asians taking up all the space, working hard and taking all the good jobs in heaven.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:04 pm

Ceek wrote:So praying for an X-box is fine but praying for the bokke to win is not? Vengeful god why do you forsake us so???

Also what if you live in China and never get a chance to read the bible? Then god won't help you? Suppose he doesn't want all these Asians taking up all the space, working hard and taking all the good jobs in heaven.
i didn't pray for an xbox bro! I asked for his hand in my finances, and from being massively and painfully in debt, in two months i'm richer than i've ever been.

The bible deals extensively with that too, our work as christians is to bring the bible and new covenant of God to all men, and only then will the second arrival of Christ occur.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:06 pm

also do you really expect God to answer any prayer if you not prepared to put in the effort for him, to give yourself to him as it says in the bible.

I believe it says he wil spit you from his mouth. which isn't a nice thought.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 3, 2006, 3:07 pm

The night time is the right time.

:yu:
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Post by Tenacious B » November 3, 2006, 3:08 pm

i'm not going to respond to most of what you wrote, because people can make their own assumptions from what you've written - my assumption is that you are a crazy person :lol:

my final point is that you cannot use the bible as a point of reference for logic. it doesn't make sense that i have to believe in the bible to believe in the bible.

finally, i hope you are logical enough to understand that what we are saying is that you are ascribing features to random acts, and whether those acts are conscious acts or not, you may as well ascribe them to the flying spaghetti monster. the only thing that says god is god is an old book that you don't believe in anyway.

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Post by MacDaddy » November 3, 2006, 3:13 pm

The second coming of Marco normally only happens on nights when I'm really energetic.

Sometimes there is even a third coming.

:leering:
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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:15 pm

matt i hear you bro.

it's uncanny and crazy, and it's far easier for an intelligent person to say oh hogwash, what rubbish.

the bible does say, that you need to accept God through blind faith to see his works in your life. and it works.

It does however surely make sense to you that:

You can't feel the presence of God without believing in Him. Then everything is blind luck.

which is what i was trying to say nitpicker.

if i could explain it better i would, and if i could show you, i would. but you need to accept Jesus as your saviour to do so. which isn't going to happen so ya ...

i'll continue to feel an overwhelming presence of a higher power in my life, and you won't ... however illogical that may sound to you.

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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 3:16 pm

What about the chinese that die before you get a chance to speak to them? They go to hell? Jeezlike i bet you can get anything built in hell if they keeping all the chinese.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by Tenacious B » November 3, 2006, 3:19 pm

Ceek wrote:Jeezlike i bet you can get anything built in hell if they keeping all the chinese.
QUOTE OF THE CENTURY

and neil, my point is that what if i accepted Conan the Barbarian into my life, and felt his spirit move through me, and genuinely believed that he brought me greatness and love, and told y'all about it. you'd think i was a moron. i'd tell you to read the book of hyperborea, because if you believed in the book you would believe in the mighty conan. you'd think i was a moron and insane.

now, what's the difference between conan the barbarian and god?

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:19 pm

i don't know ... but i'll ask people who've been dealing with this if you REALLY want an answer ceek.

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Post by Ceek » November 3, 2006, 3:24 pm

Its cool i already know the answer.
During the last six decades, Cliff Richard has charted many hit singles, and holds the record (along with Elvis Presley) as the only act to make the UK singles charts in all of its active decades (1950s–2000s). According to his website, he has sold 250 million records over the course of his career.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:26 pm

.Matt wrote:now, what's the difference between conan the barbarian and god?
the fact that God IS the person who built this universe and created us in his image...

Conan isn't going to answer your prayers bro, and conan isn't going to give you a place in heaven, no matter how hard you believe.

Conan will never give you the feeling that God gives me.

Your approach to God is the same as your approach to Conan it seems, which is kinda sad bro. It's clearly way to scary for you to believe in something intangible than it is to accept it.

Even now, you are calling me crazy, because it is far easier for you to accept that than the possibility that i'm right. I believe that's out of respect for me as a person so i won't ever begrudge you for that.

To you God will always be mythical bullshit fairytale, like Conan, which actually just proves your concept of God is incredibly naive. and in your life there will never ever be a difference between him and conan.

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Post by Tenacious B » November 3, 2006, 3:33 pm

so you're saying that the only difference between god and conan the barbarian, my lord and saviour, is that you FEEL it?

how do you know conan won't give me a place in heaven? can you prove it? if you can prove that conan the barbarian isn't my lord and saviour, i promise that i will go to church with you every sunday from now on.

and conan gives me a pretty damn good feeling!

and my approach to conan is EXACTLY my approach to god. they're both mythical, literary figures who have left their impression on our society. god has left more of an impression, but he's had 2000 years longer to do it. also, both of their adventures make for great reading.

and i think your concept of conan is incredibly naive.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:41 pm

yes i feel it, his Holy Spirit and Works in my life are as tangible to me as night and day...

Why then does every culture across the planet not strive to find the presence of Conan?

Why is religion and the concept of Conan not prevalent through out humanity?

Where does Conan say in his books believe in me and you shall have eternal life?

Matthew as i've said to you on numerous occasions in this thread, proof requires faith, and you have none, and i know how unbelievably scary leaps of faith can be.

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Post by Tenacious B » November 3, 2006, 3:46 pm

i feel conan and his works in my life - and they are tangible to me as well.

i'm sure the 200 million people who read conan's books and watched his movies were definitely interested in him, his life, his deeds, and his philosophy.

and if you have given conan a 1940 year head start on god, i bet you he'd be far more prevalent than god.

conan never says anything like "believe in me". why? is he worse because he doesn't have a catchphrase? i'm sure i could find one if it will help you believe.

and i do have faith! faith in CONAN! why do you not have faith? it is obvious that conan is the light and the way... you won't understand, because you haven't given your life to conan like i have.

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:49 pm

.Matt wrote:i feel conan and his works in my life - and they are tangible to me as well.

i'm sure the 200 million people who read conan's books and watched his movies were definitely interested in him, his life, his deeds, and his philosophy.

and if you have given conan a 1940 year head start on god, i bet you he'd be far more prevalent than god.
matthew i know you want me to say 'what absolute bullshit' because then you have proved your point.

All I actually feel inspired to tell you is this, I hope Conan gives you the spiritual calmness that humanity is striving for, my God does. So if you can find that in Conan, then I'm really happy that you have attained SOME measure of spirituality in your life.

As it stands I don't think you believe at all what you are saying, and i completely and wholeheartedly believe what i am saying.

that is the difference between Conan and God.
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Post by Tenacious B » November 3, 2006, 3:50 pm

anyway, i'm going home. i believe my point has been made :D

great discussion, btw. :yu:

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Post by masterb » November 3, 2006, 3:56 pm

yeah you proved to me that you have absolutely no idea what God is.

And that there is actually hope for you yet...

I believe your desperation to fight against this is borne out of a fear that you can only control by disregarding it, and that if you actually decide to take a leap of faith with God, it might change your life forever, as it has for millions of other scary, psychotic christians around the world.

lata bro.

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Post by Mr Dildo » November 4, 2006, 5:41 pm

MacDaddy wrote:
You guys are becoming the Jehova's Witnesses of Atheism.

Sweet Peter..!!! ...

that is the chirp of the century!!!

WHAAHAHAHAAAAAAHHHAHAAAHH!!


Made my day dude!!!

!!

!!!
Feel free to disagree with me if you think I'll give a shit

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Post by PORL » November 4, 2006, 6:31 pm

my girlfriends 12 year old sister was told by her teacher (at a catholic school) that anyone who isn't christian is going to hell. what happened to acceptance and what not??

i just can't understand how christians can shrug off proven facts (read: science) as nonsense, while their best explanation for how they know god exists is 'i just know' or 'i can feel it' or whatever.. or when asked to explain why horrible things happen in the world when god is supposedly all powerful, loving and forgiving, a typical response might be 'god works in mysterious ways'.

what the fuck is intelligent design all about?? why is it that once science has proved something that contradicts the bible (ie, the process of evolution), christians have to cook up 'intelligent design', which has absoultely NO solid explanation or proof other than 'humans are too complex to have evolved'.

why is there so much hatred towards homosexuals?? what happened to forgiveness?? christian zealots spout how it is written in the bible that being gay is wrong, but why can't anybody else find that part??

how can you base your life around a book that could have been written by anyone??

why does christianity actively try and convert?? if people wanted to listen, perhaps they would find out of their own accord??

why do christians try and force their beliefs on others?? who the fuck are they to turn their views into my laws??

explain to me why christians deem it necessary to attempt to change abortion laws?? christians already follow those rules if they believe it is right, correct?? then why would it matter if it was made into a law?? why force it on people who don't believe in christianity??

why are there so many different factions of christianity?? if you all read one book, and worship one god, then why is there more than one faction?? it couldn't be because people are reading your book the way they want to so they can live exactly the way they decide, could it??

if god really cares, why doesn't he reveal himself?? why doesn't he stop all the suffering in the world?? hell, he doesn't even have to stop ALL the suffering - he could just stop the suffering of the christian people, since they're blindly worshipping him.. surely he would favour those who worshipped him as their lord, and punish those who didn't?? i like how the punishment or reward is conveniently reserved for the time when nobody can ever know if it actually exists or not.

now i'm not anti-religion. i am, in general, anti christian. it's not because of the fact that christianity has no solid proof and basically works on the premise that people will follow blindly (read: make up) a god, an afterlife, and so on. it's actually because in my personal experience, christians are the only ones who have ever really tried to shove their religion down my throat. i don't give a flying fuck about christianity, and if i did, i'd go to the god damn church. i don't need zealots trying to run countries and alter laws that will affect people who don't choose to believe in what might as well be considered a work of fiction. i didn't need to have hours of my time wasted in seconday school school being forced to listen to endless christian drivel instead of improving my skills in mathematics, or science, or psychology, and i didn't need to be forced to pray in primary school when i was too young to even realise what i was supposed to be doing. i find it pretty disgusting that christianity attempts to shove jesus down the throats of children before they're old enough to think for themselves, and to try and scare them into believing in god because otherwise they'll go to hell. where was my islam class in school?? why didn't i have equal time devoted to judaism, or hinduism??

i'm sure you're a great person masterb, you're funny, and appear to be quite intelligent - so i'm sorry if i've insulted you, and i would just like to point out that although i have said christians actively try and convert me, you haven't tried, not even once - obviously there are differences in your religion, and i respect you for not trying. however, don't bother replying to my post unless you're going to give somekind of solid answers, things like 'i wrestle with this question every day BUT (basically you don't really have an answer' or 'i just know' or 'its supernatural and i just can't explain' etc etc, things like that just aren't gonna cut it. i would be geniunely interested to see what you have to say for yourself, if you have solid answers, though.

now it's 3.50am, and i'm going to bed.
CRIKEAAAAAAAAARGHHHH

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