Kallis?

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Kallis?

Post by Tenacious B » March 28, 2007, 7:31 am

a good article from the cape times.

pretty much sums up what we were talking about while watching the match on saturday - i'm sure everyone can remember my wails of horror when kallis walked out onto the pitch.

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Post by Ceek » March 28, 2007, 8:01 am

I read the original hartman article.

I can't decide. No doubt he is amazing, but he did slow down the pace of teh (TEH? DID I JUST SPELL "THE" INCORRECTLY? HOW STUPID AM I???) innings drastically. Prince didn't really help.

If we could choose Vd wath he would replace langeveld and prince and then we could play loets bosman in the middle order, or Neil Mckkensie?

We can't drop kallis, he is too good. Whhy didn't he win that game for us then though? I don't know...
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Post by Tenacious B » March 28, 2007, 8:19 am

undoubtedly, kallis is a great batter, but i'm not sure he is up to the pace of the modern one-day game. i'm not even sure if dropping him is the right idea, but if gibbs had come in at three and kept the runrate popping, kallis could have come in at 5 or 6 when we would have only needed 4.5 or so an over for the last 10 - well within his abilities.

mckenzie would make a great addition, but i'm not sure kallis would allow himself to come in at 5.

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Post by no noodles » March 28, 2007, 8:42 am

I can't see them ever dropping Kallis.

It's a bit tough, coz on certain days he can come in and absolutely murder the opposition (see 1st ODI vs Pakistan at Centurion - as a matter of fact, you can take a look at that whole series - He had 3 innings and scored 88 from 85, 34 from 43 and 71 from 89 - apart from his 2nd inning at PE (which we lost - interesting that) he did not play badly at all).

I am still adamant that Kallis will 1st and foremost play for his average and then play for the team, even if that means getting to 50 with a strike rate of 70.

This is a pretty good article about Saturdays game: Cricinfo - again

Anyway. If we bat 1st leave Kallis in. If we chase, boot him out or drop him down the order.
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Post by theonetheonly » March 28, 2007, 9:07 am

I think Kallis belongs to the last generation of player, along with Tendulkar.
Great players, amazing skill and can accelerate at times, but generally not the type the modern game needs. pure power and aggression.

and yes, I have committed Indian blasphemy by maligning Tendulkar, may the many headed/armed gods have mercy on my soul.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 28, 2007, 1:14 pm

from the article wrote:a man who is renowned for killing momentum so as to re-establish it in his own image
great quote, or greatest quote?

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Post by badeesh! » March 29, 2007, 12:36 pm

i hated jaques' guts after that game but in hindsight, for two new batsmen to come in in the situation they were, with the aussies sniffing victory and starting to bowl out their skins... i can't be angry with him anymore.

he did really well imo in that specific situation and kept us in touch ... once again with gibbes, boucher, pollock and kemp ... the real run chasers, giving their wickets away cheaply and to poor cricket.

he doesn't deserve the crticism he has received.

we would've lost to sri lanka yesterday if not for him.

i love you jk!!!!

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Post by Mitch » March 29, 2007, 1:25 pm

He started very differently yesterday, 50 off 55 balls. he was going for the big shots early but not middling much. On hindsight I think Kallis is a bit off touch but is too good (or it's against his instincts) to give his wicket away - and that's what we saw on Saturday.

It may not be a case of Kallis being crap at the modern one day game and just a case of Kallis needing to find some form.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2007, 1:38 pm

kallis has the third lowest strike rate in our batting, behind prince and dippenaar.

i'd like to see that compared to other world players.

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Post by badeesh! » March 29, 2007, 1:45 pm

who would you rather have in his place?

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Post by Mitch » March 29, 2007, 1:51 pm

Our middle order is pretty cold at the moment but we have to stick with it as we don't have anybody else outside Bosman.

Bosman for Kallis would be a stretch I think.

But Prince and Kallis should not be near the same side so I'm in favour of Petersen/Bosman for Prince right through the tournament, depending on our extra batsman/spinner requirements
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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2007, 1:51 pm

badeesh! wrote:who would you rather have in his place?
no one. he is a fine batsman, and as he showed yesterday, when the game moves at a more sedate place he is crucial.

but i'd also like our lineup to be a bit more elastic. smith should be prepared to slot gibbs, boucher or kemp (and maybe even pollock) in before kallis, depending on circumstances. i remember hansie was quite adventurous that way, but smith still feels that if kallis goes into the teamsheet at 3, he bats at 3.

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Post by Mitch » March 29, 2007, 1:54 pm

I may be wrong, but isn't Gibbs number 3 normally, and Kallis came in yesterday because Gibbs is vulnerable to the inswinging delivery early on in his innings?

Edit : yes I am indeed wrong. Gibbs was at four on Saturday as well
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Post by badeesh! » March 29, 2007, 1:56 pm

no gibbes is pretty set at four ...

matt makes a good point, if gibbes and boucher had come in v aus before kallis it might of made a difference.

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Post by Paelleon » March 29, 2007, 1:57 pm

Actually I think Kallis is a perfect 3. If AB goes out, we get Kallis and Smith - solid and explosive. If Smith goes, we get Kallis and AB - solid and flamboyent. If we then lose the other opener, we get Gibbs and Kallis - solid and attacking. We need to work on the order after Kallis (Gibbs, Boucher, Pollock and Kemp) they are all very different players, with very different strengths, particularly on their playing of spin ...

I'm more concerned over their mental strength in the middle. Maybe it's just lack of game time; but Kemp and Pollock have failed too many times to count now.
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Post by Mitch » March 29, 2007, 1:59 pm

Kemp should come in ahead of Boucher earlier on in the innings - there's a bit of confusion in roles there I think. But mostly it's a case of the middle order being cold - hopefully they can come right during the rest of the super 8's. I'm almost hoping we lose Smith and Kallis early against Ireland.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2007, 2:01 pm

Paelleon wrote:We need to work on the order after Kallis
you see, this is the wrong mindset. why do we need to work on an order after kallis? why not just work on our order as a whole, understand the strengths and weaknesses of each batter, and play them when necessary.

gibbs is a better no.3 when we need 9 an over off the last 10. kallis is a great number 5 when we need 50 off the last 20. this inelasticity is not helping anyone.

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Post by badeesh! » March 29, 2007, 2:06 pm

there's a pretty solid cricketing rule that goes back time immemorial and that is you have your best batsmen at three... period...

ponting for aus etc etc

there order is also pretty set in stone ... and looks in theory, very similar to ours.

maybe kallis just screwed up ... and will learn from it, i've seen him completely dominate attacks when required ...

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Post by Rebel Pope » March 29, 2007, 2:17 pm

As kemp is never allowed to bowl i would drop him and give bosman a chance. Also I would bat boucher after either of them. Moving Boucher up the order can only be described as a failed experiment after he failed against Australia and Sri-lanka.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2007, 2:19 pm

yes, but the australians have a little thing called "reliability" on their side. in a team like ours that wavers between brilliance and complete shittiness, if we don't adapt to our performance we will always struggle.

the australians don't have to worry about that. they will almost always have a 70 opening stand, followed by 3 50's and a couple of 20's, minimum.

also, i'm almost certain kallis is no longer our best batsman.

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Post by badeesh! » March 29, 2007, 2:32 pm

i think he probably is, bar smith, who is an out n out opener.

consistency would be the most wonderful thing ever ...

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Post by Mitch » March 29, 2007, 2:37 pm

Rebel Pope wrote:As kemp is never allowed to bowl i would drop him and give bosman a chance.
I actually like Kemp's bowling because he bowls each ball straight, yet with slight variations in length and pace - and he picked up wickets in SA and in one of the earlier games. I would prefer he bowled before Smith.
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Post by The Third Man » March 29, 2007, 3:09 pm

.Matt wrote:kallis has the third lowest strike rate in our batting, behind prince and dippenaar.

i'd like to see that compared to other world players.
I was intrigued by this question. I had a look at the strike rate of a few ODI players. There are a number of players with strike rates lower that Kallis' 71.21, Dravid at 70.76, Chanderpaul and Vincent of NZ at about 70, Vaughn and Bell of England both < 70. There are also quite a few players with a similar SR like VVS Laxman and Fleming.

Most good ODI players seem to be around the mid to high seventies.

Seems to suggest JK isn't too sedate for one-day cricket, SA aren't always going to be chasing 370+. Although I agree with the idea of being more adaptable with the batting order.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2007, 3:23 pm

i'm open to debate, but to be honest, none of those players are "the best batters in their team", as we seem to look to kallis to be.

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Post by theonetheonly » March 29, 2007, 3:38 pm

I think Dravid, Chanderpaul, Fleming are probably one of the best batsmen in their respective sides, if not the best.
well, at least Dravid is in the Indian team.




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Post by The Third Man » March 29, 2007, 3:39 pm

Dravid might be, considering Tendulkar's decline, but you are quite right. Kallis may well not be our most decisive ODI player - but an average of 45 suggests he is the most consistent.

I'd want him around as an anchor because you never know which (if any) of the others is going to fire.
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Post by Tenacious B » March 29, 2007, 3:52 pm

which goes back to my point that he should not be dropped - just used (along with all the other batters) more effectively.

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Post by Paelleon » March 29, 2007, 5:49 pm

Okay, late to the party - but that happens when you actually work all day ...

Kallis at 3 could and should be more flexible. Particularly considering our good starts. Let's analyse the Aus Game - opening stand of 160, Kallis comes in and bats up a mild breeze. In this case Gibbs would have been a better choice, with Kemp to follow. If we lost a whole fuckload of wickets, then I would consider sending in the great K because he is a rock.

In the Sri Lanka game (which was the game on my mind to begin with) he arrived at the crease at 1-1; and set about restoring the natural order of things.

Flexibility is key, so no arguments there. Personally, I've been marginally unhappy with the captaincy. Bowling changes are too rigid, and field placings (while experimental) are persisted with despite not working.
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Post by Mitch » April 2, 2007, 9:57 am

A fair call (From supercricket):

Likkel respec', pleez by Neil Manthorp

Posted on 1 April 2007

Jacques Kallis and Shaun Pollock are a little irritated at the moment, which may not be a bad thing. Not necessarily for them, of course, but for the team and for South Africa. While both men are able to publicly rise above criticism and adopt the 'water off a duck's back' approach, privately they are cross.
And when Jacques Kallis and Shaun Pollock are cross, they tend to focus their emotions into their cricket. And unlike many players who boil over and become distracted, these men tend to produce match-winning performances under duress.

After an unbeaten century against The Netherlands, Kallis was lambasted by some sections of the media for the sluggish pace of his innings in a losing cause against Australia while Pollock, who conceded 83 runs against the Aussies in what he described as "my worst day at the office", also came in for some heavy criticism.

If Mickey Arthur is to be believed (and he is the most honest man in cricket) then it wasn't the criticism itself which hurt - but the nature of it. Aparently, a poll was immediately run back in South Africa asking whether Kallis should even be in the one-day team while Pollock's role with the new ball was questioned. If that's true, it's extraordinary.

They are South Africa's two best players, two of the greatest all rounders ever to play cricket.

"There will always be criticism and everyone accepts that, although I thought the criticism of Jacques after the Australia game was unkind and uncalled for given everything he has done for South African cricket. But he laid all that to rest with his performance against Sri Lanka and I expect Shaun to do exactly the same as the tournament progresses," Arthur a couple of days ago.

Many people said that Arthur was too 'soft' to work in international cricket, that he lacked the necessary iron fist. Those people may be not be surprised to hear Arthur defend his two biggest stars. Well, do be surprised because Arthur did have some stern words to say - but he did it behind closed doors.

"We had a serious chat after the Australia game, I'm not going to shy away from that or deny it. I believe in tackling tricky situations head-on within the team environment and when the time came for our debrief session after the game we had a strong chat about Jacques' batting," Arthur said.

"His role is to bat through the innings, everyone knows that, but the game determines how you should bat and his innings was not what was required at that time. At 160 without loss in the 21st over we were well on track.but Jacques has won so many games for South Africa, he's always a potential match-winner and he's our best player," Arthur said.

"Jacques accepted that he had got his pacing wrong against Australia and that's going to happen from time to time, everyone has a bad day. But it happens a lot less to Jacques than most other players," Arthur said, "and he put the issue to bed against Sri Lanka where he was absolutely awesome and took us to within a couple of runs of victory."

Apparently, Kallis was livid when he heard the things being said back home, and rightly so. For the last couple of years we have heard endless accounts of how the middle and lower middle order can smash the ball out of the park with more efficiency than any other team in the world (while Kallis provides security and stability at the other end.)

Well, Warner Park in St.Kitts is the smallest ground in international cricket and, whereas the vaunted quartet of Gibbs, Boucher, Kemp and Pollock have lifted the barrier of a 'comfortable' run chase from seven runs an over to nearer nine, Kallis made the decision that ten or eleven was within their capabilities. And well it might have been, on another day.

Kallis has won more man-of-the-match awards than any other South African player; infact, he does it so often we take it for granted. How do you think he feels when he hears people saying that Robin Peterson won the game against Sri Lanka? Kallis scored 86 - Peterson's only runs were the four streaky ones past slip.

Pollock was winning match and even series awards just a couple of months ago against India and Pakistan and has been doing so for a dozen years.

South African sportsmen often refer to their home supporters being the most fickle in the world. In my experience, that is not true. But when people turn nasty about Jacques Kallis and Shaun Pollock after a single, modest performance, you can understand why they say that.

Not that this is supposed to appease either of the great men. I rather like the idea of Kallis and Pollock remaining irritated for at least a couple of weeks yet. South Africa might just become favourites.
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